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INTERPRETATIONS OF SOME "PRAYERS"
¹ AND CONVERSATIONS" ² OF
THE MOTHER
I.
"PRAYERS AND MEDITATIONS"
Q:
In some of the Mother's Prayers
which are addressed to "divin Maître" I find the words: "avec notre
divine Mère". How can
the Mother and "divine Maître" have
a "divine Mère" ? It is as if the Mother was not the "divine
Mère'' and there was some other Mother and the "divin
Maître" was not the Transcendent and had
also a "divine Mère" ! Or is it that all these are addressed
to something impersonal ?
A: The Prayers are mostly
written in an identification with the earth-consciousness. It is the
Mother in the lower nature addressing the Mother in the higher nature, the
Mother herself carrying on the Sadhana of the earth-consciousness for the
transformation praying to herself above from whom the forces of transformation
come. This continues till the identification of the earth-consciousness
and the higher consciousness is effected. The word "notre" is
general, I believe, referring to all born into the earth-consciousness — it does
not mean the Mother of the "Divin Maître" and
myself. It is the Divine who is always referred to as Divin Maître and Seigneur. There is the Mother who is carrying on the
Sadhana and the Divine Mother, both being one but in different poises, and both
turn to the Seigneur or Divine Master. This kind of prayer from the Divine
to the Divine you will find also in the Ramayana and the Mahabharata.
21-8-1936
¹ The "Prayers" of the
Mother, originally written in French, were subsequently published under the
title Prières et Méditations. Some of them, translated by
Sri Aurobindo in English, are included in Part Three of this volume.
²
Conversations is a record of the Mother's talks in English
with a small group of disciples in 1929.
Page - 383
(This is Sri Aurobindo's answer
to the Mother's letter dated 26-11-1915 containing a record of her
experience. The Mother's letter has been included in Part Three. See pp. 471-72.) The experience you have described is Vedic in the
real sense, though not one which would easily be recognised by the modern
systems of Yoga which call themselves Yogic. It is the union of the
"Earth" of the Veda and Purana with the divine Principle, an earth which
is said to be above our earth, that is to say, the physical being and
consciousness of which the world and the body are only images. But the
modern Yogas hardly recognise the possibility of a material union with the
Divine.
31-12-1915
Q: There
are some Prayers of the Mother of 1914 in which she speaks of transformation and
manifestation. Since at that time she was not here, does this not mean
that she had these ideas long before she came here ?
A: The Mother had been spiritually conscious from
her youth, even from her childhood, upward and she had done Sadhana and had
developed this knowledge very long before she came to India.
23-12-1933
Q:
Nothing is more important than: "Ta splendour veut rayonner" as the Mother
says in her Prayer of the 16th June 1914. All ideas of perfection for
oneself or being an instrument seem flat and insipid when considered from the
standpoint of the vast universal movement of consciousness.
A: It is correct.
Perfection for oneself is not the true ideal. Sadhana and instrumentation
are only useful as a means for the "rayonnement".
30-4-1936
Page - 384
Q: In
her Prayer of the 17th May 1914, the Mother says, "Telles furent les deux
phrases que j'écrivis hier par une sorte de nécessité absolute. La
premiére, comme si la puissance de la
priére ne serait compléte que si elle
était tracée sur le papier".
It is true that a prayer
is not sufficiently powerful when it is kept unexpressed by speech or writing,
and that its expression is necessary to make it completely powerful ?
A:
It
was not meant as a general rule — it was only a necessity felt
with regard to that particular prayer and that experience. It all depends
on the person, the condition, the need of the moment or of that stage or phase
of the consciousness. These things in spiritual experience are always
plastic and variable. In some conditions or in one phase or at one moment
expression may be needed to bring out the effectuating force of the prayer or
the stability of the experience; in another condition or phase or at
another moment it may be the opposite, expression would rather disperse the
force or break the stability.
21-6-1936
Q: The Mother's Prayer of the 12th December 1914, begins
with: "Il faut à chaque instant savoir tout perdre pour tout
gagner ..."
The Isha Upanishad also
says: "tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā". Do not these two statements refer
to the same truth ?
A: Yes,
certainly. It is essentially the same truth put in different ways.
It might be put in a negative form — "if we cling to things as they are in
their imperfection in the Ignorance, we cannot have them in their truth and
perfection in the Divine Light, Harmony and Ananda".
16-8-1935
Page - 385
Q: In one
of her Prayers the Mother says: "The joy contained in activity is
superseded by a greater joy in withdrawal from activity". This implies that
withdrawal from activity is preferable to activity.
A: Do you think the Mother has a rigid
mind like you people and was laying down a hard and fast rule, for all time and
all people and all conditions ? It refers to a certain stage when the
consciousness is sometimes in activity and when not in activity withdrawn in
itself. Afterwards comes a stage when the Sachchidananda condition is
there in work also. There is a still further stage when both are as it
were one, but that is the supramental. The two states are the silent
Brahman and the active Brahman and they can alternate (1st stage),
coexist (2nd stage), fuse (3rd stage). If you reach even the
first stage then you can think of applying Mother's dictum, but why misapply it
now ?
Q:
Is it possible to have the highest Sachchidananda realisation in work
?
A: Certainly it is realisable in work. Good
Lord ! How could the integral Yoga exist if it were not ?
Q:
The Mother says in her "Prayers" that experience is willed by the
Divine. Am I then to suppose that dearth or abundance of experiences is in
any given case willed
by the Divine ?
A: To say so has no value unless you realise all
things as coming from the Divine. One who has realised as the Mother had
realised in the midst of terrible sufferings and difficulties that even these
came from the Divine and were preparing her for her work can make a spiritual
use of such an attitude. For others it may lead to wrong conclusions.
10-5-1934
Page - 386
Q:
The Mother in her Prayer of the 4 th August 1914, says: "Les
hommes, poussés par Ie conflit des forces, accomplissent un sublime sacrifice ...."
Apparently she refers to the great war; but, as a result of that war has
any "pure lumière'' filled the hearts of men or
the "Force Divine" spread on earth or something beneficial
come out from that chaos, as she mentions ? Since the nations are once
more preparing for war and are in a state of constant conflict, there seems to
be no indication of any change in the inner condition of men. People all
over the world including even the Indians seems to be wanting another war and
hardly anyone seems to require Peace, Light or Love.
A: There has been a change for the worse — the
descent of the vital world into the human. On the other hand except
in the "possessed" nations there is a greater longing for peace and
feeling that such things ought not to happen. India did not get any real
touch of the war. However what the Mother was thinking of was an opening
to the spiritual truth. That has at least tried to come. There is a
widespread dissatisfaction with the old material civilisation, a seeking for
some deeper light and truth — only unfortunately it is being taken advantage of
by the old religions and only a very small minority is consciously searching for
the new Light.
9-6-1936
Q:
You said that after the great war there has been "the descent of the vital
world into the human". But did not the vital world already descend on
earth — in Matter — even before the human beings came ? What other vital
world remained yet to descend into the human ? And how is it that it decided
to come down just at present — to prevent the higher Light from coming down in
the human world ?
A: When there is a pressure on the vital world
due to the preparing
Page - 387
Descent from above, that world
usually precipitates something of itself into the human. The vital world
is very large and far exceeds the human in extent. But usually it
dominates by influence not by descent. Of course the effort of this part
of the vital world is always to maintain humanity under its sway and prevent the
higher Light.
9-6-1936
Q: If, as you say, there has been a
change for the worse due to the
descent of the vital world, would it not make the supramental descent in the
earth-consciousness impossible or postpone its coming to some distant future
instead of "here and now" ? And since the possessed nations are
endowed with all the possible material power, there seems to be little hope of
any movement of peace being successful.
A: The vital descent cannot prevent the
supramental — still less can the possessed nations do it by their material
power, since the supramental descent is primarily a spiritual fact which will
bear its necessary outward consequences. What previous vital descents have
done is to falsify the Light that came down as in the history of Christianity
where it took possession of the teaching and distorted it and deprived it of any
widespread fulfilment. But the supermind is by definition a Light that
cannot be distorted if it comes in its own right and by its own presence. It is
only when it holds itself back and allows inferior Powers of consciousness to
use a diminished and already deflected Truth that the knowledge can be seized by
the vital Forces and made to serve their own purpose.
12-6-1936
Q:
In her Prayer of the 16th August 1914, the Mother refers to "chacun des
grands êtres Asouriques qui ont résolu d'être Tes serviteurs ...."
Page - 388
How was it that the Asuras determined the servants of the Divine ? Was it to exploit the
Divine or a "coup de diplomatic'' ?
A: It was in reference to Asuras who had taken
birth in humane bodies — a thing they usually avoid if they can, for they prefer
to possess human beings without taking birth — with the claim that they wanted
to regenerate themselves by serving the Divine and doing his work. It did
not succeed very well.
15-6-1936
Q:
Is there really an internal progress in the universe — "marche interne
d'univers", as the Mother says ? Except in a few individuals there is
hardly any progress in mankind. Internally and externally the universe
seems to be moving in the same circle always without making any essential
progress.
A: "Univers" in French usually means not
the whole universe but the "world" — the earth. There must be
a progress in the earth-consciousness, otherwise there could have been no
evolution. The evolution of mankind may go by circles or spirals, but
there is all the time an opening of more and more complete possibilities till
the possibility of the evolution of a higher race becomes valid.
1-9-1936
Q: In a
book named "Eveillez-vous" (translated from English), there
are some ideas — like those about the Advent, the hostile beings, etc. — similar
to our own. There is also a phrase in the book, "La Paix règnera sur
terre", which also occurs in the Mother's "Prayers". Has the author not
copied this phrase from the Mothers "Prayers" (unpublished)
?
Page - 389
A:
Not necessarily, as the phrase can easily come to one who
has read the Bible and the
English are very biblical. The idea of the hostile beings also is
not new, in fact it is as old as the Veda. The expectation of the
Advent is also pretty widespread, as according to the old prophecies it must be
when the Advent is due.
16-9-1935
II.
"CONVERSATIONS"
Q: The Mother asks "What do you want the Yoga for
? To get power ?" [
Conversations
(July 1971
edition), p. 4.] Does ''power" here
mean the power to communicate one's own experience to others ? What does
it precisely mean ?
A: Power is a general term — it is not confined
to a power to communicate. The most usual form of power is control over
things, persons, events, forces.
1-1-1937
Q:
The Mother says "What is required is concentration — concentration upon
the Divine with a view to an integral and absolute consecration to its Will and
Purpose". (Ibid.) Is its Will different from its Purpose ?
A: The two words have not
the same meaning. Purpose means the intention, the object in view towards
which the Divine is working. Will is a wider term than that.
1-1-1937
Q:
"Concentrate in the heart". (Ibid.) What
is concentration ? What is meditation ?
Page - 390
A: Concentration means gathering of the
consciousness into one centre and fixing it in one object or in one idea or in
one condition. Meditation is a general term which can include many kinds
of inner activity.
1-1-1937
Q: "A fire is
burning there is burning there .... It is the divinity in you
— your true being. Hear its voice, follow its
dictates".
(Ibid., p. 4.)
I have never seen this
fire in me. Yet I feel I know the divinity in me. I feel I hear its
voice and I try my utmost to follow its dictates. Should I doubt my
feeling ?
A: No, what you feel is probably the intimation
from the psychic being through the mind. To be directly conscious of the
psychic fire, one must have the subtle vision and subtle sense active or else
the direct action of the psychic acting as a manifest power in the
consciousness.
2-1-1937
Q:
"We have all met in previous lives". (Ibid., p. 6.)
Who precisely are
"we" ? Do both of you remember me ? Did I often serve you for this
work in the past ?
A: It is a general principle
announced which covers all who are called to the work. At the time the
Mother was seeing the past (or part of it) of those to whom she
spoke and that is why she said this. At present we are too much occupied
with the crucial work in the physical consciousness to go into these
things. Moreover we find that it encouraged a sort of vital romanticism in
the Sadhaks which made them attach more importance to these things than to the
hard work of Sadhana, so we have stopped speaking of past lives and
personalities.
2-1-1937
Page - 391
Q: "There are two paths of Yoga,
one of Tapasya (discipline) and the other of surrender". (Ibid., p. 7.)
Once you
interpreted my vision us Agni, the fire of purification and Tapasya producing
the Sun of Truth. What path do I follow ? What place has Tapasya in
the path of surrender ? Can one do absolutely without Tapasya in
the path of surrender ?
A: There is a tapasyā
that takes place automatically as the result of surrender and there is a
discipline that one carries out by one's own unaided effort — it is the latter
that is meant in the "two paths of Yoga". But Agni as the fire of tapasyā can burn in either case.
4-1-1937
Q: "The strength of such impulses as those of sex
lies usually in the fact that people take too much notice of them".
(Ibid., p. 8.)
What are the
other impulses referred to ?
A: It refers to strong vital
impulses.
4-1-1937
Q:
"The whole world is full of the poison. You take it in with every
breath". (Ibid.,
p. 10.)
How long is a Sadhak
subject to this fear of catching contagion ? I feel I won't catch such a
contagion now. Is my feeling trustworthy ?
A: I don't know that it
is. One has to go very far on the path before one is so secure as
that.
4-1-1937
Page - 392
Q: "But to those who
possess the necessary basis and foundation we say, on the contrary, 'aspire and
draw' ".
(Ibid., p. 15.)
Does this capacity
to aspire and draw indicate a great advance already made ?
A: No. It is a comparatively elementary
stage.
5-1-1937
Q: "Spiritual experience means the contact
with the Divine in
oneself (or without, which comes to the same thing in that
domain)".
(Ibid.,
p. 22.)
What is meant by the
Divine "without" ? Does it mean the cosmic Divine or the
transcendental or both ?
A: It means the Divine seen outside in things,
beings, events etc., etc.
9-1-1937
Q: Was Jeanne d''Arc's nature transformed even a
little because of her relation with the two Archangels, the two beings of the
Overmind ? (See
Ibid.)
A: I don't see
how the question of transformation comes in. Jeanne d'Arc was not
practising Yoga or seeking transformation.
9-1-1937
Q:
How can one distinguish between a dream of deeper origin and a vision ?
(See
Ibid., p. 18.)
A: There is no criterion,
but one can easily distinguish if one is in the inward condition, not sleep, in
which most visions take place, by the nature of the impression made. A
vision in dream is more
Page - 393
difficult to distinguish from a vivid
dream-experience but one gets to feel the difference.
9 -1-1937
Q:
Sometimes one remember
the dreams, sometimes one does not.
(See Ibid., p. 19.) Why is it so ?
A: It depends on the connection between the
two states of consciousness at the time of waking. Usually there is a
turn over of the consciousness in which the dream-state disappears more or less
abruptly, effacing the fugitive impression made by the dream events (or
rather their transcription) on the physical sheath. If the waking is
more composed (less abrupt) or, if the impression is very strong,
then the memory remains at least of the last dream. In the last case one
may remember the dream for a long time, but usually after getting up the dream
memories fade away. Those who want to remember their dreams sometimes make
a practice of lying quiet and tracing backwards, recovering the dreams one by
one. When the dream-state is very light, one can remember more dreams than
when it is heavy.
9-1-1937
Q:
"You have no longer anything that you can call your own; you feel
everything as coming from the Divine, and you have to offer it back to its
source. When you can realise that, then even the smallest thing to which
you do not usually pay much attention or care, ceases to be trivial and
insignificant; it becomes full of meaning and it opens up a vast horizon
beyond". (See
Ibid., p. 28.)
Is this as elementary a
stage as the stage of "aspire and draw" ?
A: Not so elementary.
14-1-1937
Page - 394
Q: "But if we want
the Divine to reign here we must give all we have and are and do here to the
Divine". (Ibid., p. 30.)
If one does this completely
has he anything more to do ?
A: No. But it is not easy to do it
completely.
14-1-1937
Q: How can we
recognise who gives all he has and is and does to the Divine ?
A: You
can't, unless you have the inner vision.
14-1-1937
Q: "For there is nothing in the
world which has not its ultimate truth and support in the Divine".
(Ibid., p. 33.)
To know this
perfectly by experience is to have a very great attainment, perhaps the final
attainment; am I right ?
A: Yes.
19-1-1937
Q:
"Obviously, what has happened had to happen; it would not have been, if it
had not been intended". (Ibid.)
Then, what is the place
of repentance in man's life ? Has it any place in the life of a Sadhak
?
A: The place of repentance is in its effect for
the future — if it induces the nature to turn from the state of things that
brought about the happening. For the Sadhak however it is not
repentance
Page - 395
but recognition of wrong movement and the necessity of its not
recurring that is needed.
19-1-1937
Q: "You are tied to the chain of Karma, and
there, in that chain, whatever happens is rigorously the consequence of what has
been done before". (Ibid., p. 35.)
Does
"before" mean all the past lives, beginning from the very first up to this
one ?
A: That is taking things in the mass. In a
metaphysical sense whatever happens is the consequence of all that has gone
before up to the moment of the action. Practically particular consequences
have particular antecedents in the past and it is these that are said to
determine it.
(From where are these
quotations ? In the exact intention of a sentence much sometimes depends
on the context. (It is obvious from the remark of Sri Aurobindo that while
answering this series of questions, he was not aware that the quotations cited
in the question were from the Mother's book
Conversation.) )
19-1-1937
Q: "Many people would tell you
wonderful tales of how the world was built and how it will proceed in the
future, how and where you were born in the past and what you will be hereafter,
the lives you have lived and the lives you will still live. All this has
nothing to do with spiritual life".
(Ibid. p. 47.)
Is what such people say
a complete humbug ? Is there a process other than the spiritual by which
one can know all these things ?
A: Often it is, but even if it is correct, it has
nothing spiritual in
Page - 396
it. Many mediums, clairvoyants or
people with a special faculty tell
you these things. That faculty is no more spiritual than the capacity to
build a bridge or to cook a nice dish or to solve a mathematical problem. There are intellectual
capacities, there are occult capacities — that is all.
20-1-1937
Q: "They [the vampires] are not
human; there is
only an human form or appearance .... Their method is to try first to cast
their influence upon a man; then they enter slowly into his atmosphere and
in the end may get complete possession of him, driving out entirely the real
human soul and personality". (Ibid., pp. 49 - 50.)
X has married a girl
who, the Mother has said, is vampire-like to some extent. Is he then under
all these risks ? What precautions should he take ? Shall I warn him
?
A:
First of all what is meant is not that the vampire or vital being
even in possession of a human body tries to possess yet another human
being. All that is the description of how a disembodied
(vampire) vital being takes possession of a human body without being born
into it in the ordinary way — for that is their desire, to possess a human body
but not by the way of birth. Once thus human, the danger they are for
others is that they feed on the vitality of those who are in contact with them —
that is all.
Secondly in this case. Mother only
said vampire-like to some extent. That does not mean that she is one of
these beings, but has to some extent the habit of feeding on the vitality of
others. There is no need to say anything to X. It would only disturb
him and not help in the least.
27-1-1937
Page -
397
Q: The
Mother, in her "Conversations" says that the first effect of Yoga is
to take away the mental control so that the ideas and desires which were so long
checked become surprisingly prominent and create
difficulties. (See
Ibid., p. 8.)
A: They were not prominent
because they were getting some satisfaction or at least the vital generally was
getting indulged in one way or another. When they are no longer indulged
then they become obstreperous. But they are not new forces created by the
Yoga — they were there all the
time.
What is
meant by the mental control being removed is that the mental simply kept them in
check but could not remove them. So in Yoga the mental has to be replaced
by the psychic or spiritual self-control which could do what the vital cannot,
only many Sadhaks do not make this exchange in time and withdraw the mental
control merely.
12-5-1933
Q: In "Conversations" the
Mother says: "One who dances and jumps and screams has the feeling that he
is somehow very unusual in his excitement; and his vital nature takes
great pleasure in that". (Ibid., p. 15) Does she mean that one should be usual instead of
unusual in one's excitement during spiritual experience
?
A: The Mother did not mean that one
must be usual in one's excitement at all —
she meant that the man is
not only excited but also wants to be unusual (extraordinary) in his
excitement. The excitement itself is bad and the desire to seem
extraordinary is worse.
7-6-1933
Q: What
does Mother mean by the sentence in "Conversations": "When you eat,
you must feel that it is the Divine who is eating through you" ?
(Ibid., p. 29.)
Page -
398
A: It means an offering of the food not to the ego or desire but to
the Divine, who is behind all action.
11-1-1935
Q: In "Conversations" the Mother speaks of
the power of thoughts and gives the example that if
"you have a keen desire for a certain person to come and that, along with this
vital impulse of desire, a strong imagination accompanies the mental formation
you have made .... And if there is a sufficient power of will in your
thought-form, if it is a well-built formation, it will arrive at its own
realisation". (Ibid., pp.
58-9.)
In the
example given, suppose there is no strong desire in the vital but only thoughts
or vague imaginations in the mind, would they go and induce that person to come
?
A: It
might; especially if that person were himself desirous of coming, it could
give the decisive push. But in most cases desire or will behind the
thought-force would be necessary.
26-8-1936
Q:
In "Conversations" the Mother says that depression or discouragement
cut holes in the nervous envelope and make hostile attacks more
easy. (See Ibid., p. 102.) In one sense this means
that a man with goodwill should not discourage anyone's wrong ideas, impulses or
movements. But would this not be against the principles in ordinary life
as well as in Sadhana ? There is the way of keeping silent when dealing
with such people, but even that sometimes hurts them more than a point-blank
discouragement.
Would the bad
effects of depression and discouragement indicated by the Mother happen in
ordinary life also ?
Page -
399
A:
The knowledge about the bad effect of depressions is meant for the Sadhak to
learn to avoid these things. He cannot expect people to flatter his failures
or mistakes or indulge his foibles merely because he has the self-habit of
indulging in depression and hurting his nervous envelope if that is done. To
keep himself free from depression is his business, not that of others. For
instance some people have the habit of getting into
depression if the Mother does not comply with their desires — it does not
follow that the Mother must comply with their desires in order to keep them
jolly — they must learn to get rid of this habit of mind. So with people's
wish of encouragement or praise for all they do.
One can be silent or non-intervening, but if even that
depresses them, it is their own fault and nobody else's.
Of course, it is the same in ordinary life — depression
is always hurtful. But in Sadhana it is more serious because it becomes a
strong obstacle to the smooth and rapid progress towards the goal.
18-7-1936
Q:
In "Entretiens" (The
French translation of Conversations by the Mother)
the Mother says, "Même ceux qui ont la volonté
de s'enfuir, quand ils arrivent de l'autre côté, peuvent trouver que la fuite
ne sert pas à grand' chose après tout".
("And
as for those who have the will of running away, even they when they go
over to the other side, may find that the flight was not of much use after
all." Conversations,
p.
30)
What does "arrivent de l'autre cote" mean in this sentence ? Does it mean
"when they come into this world" or "when they go into the world of
silence which they realised".
A: No — "Arrivent de l'autre côté"
simply means "when they die". What Mother intended was that when they
actually arrive at their Nirvana they find it is not the ultimate solution or
largest realisation of the Supreme and they must eventually come back and have
their share of the world action to reach that largest realisation.
2-5-1935
Page - 400
Q:
The Mother has said in "Entretiens":
"En fait, la mort a été attachée à toute vie sur terre".
("Death
as a fact has been attached to all life upon earth".
Conversations, p.
43)
The words "En fait" and "attachée" tend to
give the impression that after all death is inevitable. But the preceding
sentence — "Si cette croyance pouvait
être rejetée, d'abord de la mentalité consciente ... la mort ne serait plus
inévitable" ("If
this belief could be cast out first from the conscious mind.... death would no
longer be inevitable". Conversations,
p.
43)
— brings in an
ambiguity because it does not make death so
inevitable; it introduces a condition — an "if" —
by which it could be avoided. But the categoricality of the sentence with "En fait" rather dilutes one's expectation of a material
immortality. Moreover, the "if" in the other sentence is too formidable to
be satisfied.
A: There is no ambiguity that I can
see. "En fait" and "attachée" do not convey any sense of inevitability.
"En fait" means simply that in fact, actually, as things are at present all
life (on earth)
has death attached to it as its end; but it does not
in the least convey the idea that it can never be otherwise or that this is
the unalterable law of all existence. It is at present a fact for certain
reasons which are stated, — due to certain mental and physical circumstances —
if these are changed, death is not inevitable any longer.
Obviously the alteration can only come "if" certain
conditions are satisfied — all progress and change by
evolution depends upon an "if" which gets satisfied. If the animal mind had
not been pushed to develop speech and reason, mental man would never have come
into existence, — but the "if", — a stupendous and formidable one, was
satisfied. So with the ifs that condition a farther progress.
31-7-1936
Page - 401
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